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10.2.5
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Tier One Talent Discussion
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Post by
MrSlick
I have been curious about how rogues feels about the current state of the talent tree. So I thought it would be interesting to discuss each tier one at a time and see what everyone thinks about it.
Today I would like to focus on Tier One.
Which talent have you picked?
Why did you pick it?
Are you currently focusing on PvP/ PvE or both?
What are your favorite aspects about the talent you have selected?
Do you have any complaints about current talents from tier one?
What changes, if any, would you make if you had the power to do so?
Post by
Attis
Assassination, PvE, Shadow Focus, I can BoS for free and my opener cost no energy.
Tier 1 is just perfect imo, cant say same thing about other tiers though
Post by
jezkodezko
Combat and Assa should take
Shadow Focus
, Subtlety want
Subterfuge
.
Nightstalker
is useless imo.
Post by
Wanderingfox
Combat and Assa should take
Shadow Focus
, Subtlety want
Subterfuge
.
Nightstalker
is useless imo.
For PvE this is entirely correct. For PvP, however,
Nightstalker
is amazing as it makes you move faster stealthed than walking in the open.
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
Combat and Assa should take
Shadow Focus
, Subtlety want
Subterfuge
.
Nightstalker
is useless imo.
Combat and Assa should take
Shadow Focus
, Subtlety want
Subterfuge
.
Nightstalker
is useless imo.
For PvE this is entirely correct. For PvP, however,
Nightstalker
is amazing as it makes you move faster stealthed than walking in the open.
Either of you fellas feel like expanding on why you feel this way? I'd be interested to hear your reasoning and results.
Post by
hymer
In BGs, I prefer Nightstalker too. No doubt Shadow Focus would tip the balance in certain cases, but Nightstalker saves a bunch of situations when you, say, need to catch up to a flag carrier or some such, or when you're shadowing a healer waiting for a fight to break out. Winning BGs is generally about being in the right place at the right time, and Nightstalker helps a lot with that.
But for PvE, it's only nice for leveling (you do spend a lot of time stealthed), and even there either one of the other possibilities outshine it in actual fighting.
Post by
584547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Neffi
Assassination here. Shadow Focus looks promising because of being energy starved, but there's certainly a huge benefit to Subterfuge. I'm not bothering with Ambush from stealth (Mutilate makes more sense because of Dispatch), so in all reality I'm usually only getting 1 opener (Garrote) unless I'm in the situation where the extra Cheap Shot on top of that will help. But being able to get an opener off anyway when I'm pulled out of stealth is quite nice.
I don't think the benefit from either of these is as massive as it sounds. I think it ultimately comes down to what you find yourself needing more often, regardless of spec.
And I'll also put in my vote that Nightstalker is pretty pointless. It's not terrible, but compared to the other two options it's not really good.
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
I'm seeing some strong reasoning here and I like that, but to play the devil's advocate I thought I'd put forth a theory and see if that brings anything new to the table. Much of what has been posted about the talents seems to be from the natural perspective of starting the fight. Given that we have Vanish, however, how do you feel about the talents
over the course of an extended fight?
Post by
hymer
@ AY: What exactly do you mean by 'extended fight'? Arena, BG, raid boss? Nightstalker only works during actual stealth, so not during the fight as such (except for BG, as I've mentioned). Shadow Focus basically gives you an opener (even if you just Mutilate) at zero energy cost, whereas Subterfuge allows you to do more than one opener when you come out of stealth (and for PvP it also gives a bit of cloud cover in some bad situations). So for PvE, if you've got really strong opening moves (sub) you still want Subterfuge to take advantage of that. If not, you just want the free use of some ability afforded by Shadow Focus (assa, and I expect combat, though I couldn't say from personal experience).
What I'm trying to say is, I don't see how Vanish changes the equation; it just brings the same matter up again about once per Vanish CD.
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
@ AY: What exactly do you mean by 'extended fight'? Arena, BG, raid boss? Nightstalker only works during actual stealth, so not during the fight as such (except for BG, as I've mentioned). Shadow Focus basically gives you an opener (even if you just Mutilate) at zero energy cost, whereas Subterfuge allows you to do more than one opener when you come out of stealth (and for PvP it also gives a bit of cloud cover in some bad situations). So for PvE, if you've got really strong opening moves (sub) you still want Subterfuge to take advantage of that. If not, you just want the free use of some ability afforded by Shadow Focus (assa, and I expect combat, though I couldn't say from personal experience).
What I'm trying to say is, I don't see how Vanish changes the equation; it just brings the same matter up again about once per Vanish CD.
Well, I don't want to be too precise since that could probably be a thread unto itself, but I think some specificity will be very beneficial. We'll leave Sub aside since I think we can agree that 3 more seconds of stealth is always better than the other two options and that the timing of stealth will have little impact on their priority choice. Assa and Combat both rely more heavily on finishers and with Vanish and Preparation can both benefit from NS/SF multiple times in a fight. In essence I suppose it boils down to are three free 'openers' (take your pick) more beneficial than two 25% buffed finishers?
Edit: Fixed my math.
Post by
hymer
I still don't... get it. 25% buffed finishers? NS buffs openers 20%, right? I'm utterly confuzzled, help me out here. :)
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
I still don't... get it. 25% buffed finishers? NS buffs openers 20%, right? I'm utterly confuzzled, help me out here. :)
Perhaps I misunderstand the mechanics involved, but as it
reads
it states that our abilities without restriction deal 25% increased damage. So the scenario I imagine is combo points to five; Vanish; Rup/Evis/Env as you will with a 25% buff to the finishers damage.
Post by
hymer
Ah, I get it now. I hadn't thought of that, obviously. :)
But Assa use Rupture and Envenom for finishers, so they won't have much fun from that. Envenom's direct damage is just one part of what it does - refreshing SnD and improving poisons being perhaps the more important ones. And even if Rupture ticks once straight away, it's still very little gain.
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
I was operating under the assumption that every tick of Rupture would benefit from the 25% since Rupture has a total value of damage that it does, it is just dealt periodically. For instance, my own Rupture tooltip states a value of 18,261 damage dealt over 24 seconds so approximately 1522 damage every two seconds. Under my current theory, NS would buff my damage to 22,826 or 1902 damage every two seconds. I suppose I'm assuming the talent operates like Combats' RS.
Edit: After a quick jump into the game, it does currently appear to work this way. Unstealthed Rupture ticks for 1771 and stealthed ticks for 2214. The tooltip even appears to change to reflect the new value.
Post by
hymer
That's incredible news to me, thanks! That actually boosts the usefulness of Nightstalker considerably.
Post by
Poposhka
so.. deadly poison + rupture, then vanish? interesting. In a PvE AOE situation, use crimson tide and fan of knives to apply bleed and poison to all mobs, then vanish... heh.
still, i'm wondering if a double-stealth opener or a 100-energy opener isn't more tempting.
Post by
AkimboYojimbo
It's a tough choice, that's for certain, though it does at least seem to keep Nightstalker competitive for at least two of the specs and perhaps even superior for Assassination which already plays to a 'damage when it counts' mehod. Nightstalker + Anticipation + Vendetta is a combination that seems tailor made for exploiting an opening or buff.
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