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My main problem with WoW.
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Post by
bandetlol
Here is my main problem with WoW. In order to help you understand what I mean... we will use this example:
First off, let me make this CLEAR: I have been playing this game since vanilla. I am not in this situation, I know many people who are willing to play with me due to having a name on my server. This is simply an outline of a problem that I see happening for ANY new player in WoW.
Say, you just started playing wow. You don't know anyone yet. You just hit 85, or whatever the current max level cap is...
And then what? How exactly does your progression go?
Say, you wanted to join the best guild in the game. Because you are a hardcore gamer, you excel at what you do. You want to go slay interweb dragons better than anyone else, or whatever.
For convenience of this example's sake, say the best guild is on your server. How exactly would you get in. You can't, its impossible. You have no raid experience, you have no gear. They likely have 5000 other apps that would all be better geared than you, and then if you got your full raid finder set after 5 months, maybe there is only 500 people better geared than you, but still. Since they are good, they can pick whoever they please, which will almost always be someone in a guild just below them, who usually has access to legendaries, and top-tier gear. Why would they get someone who needs to be geared? They are a serious progression guild, they don't care to gear you.
Your only real option is to join some random guild, which since they would actually let you in, isn't that good to begin with. You are forced to use them as a stepping stone to get some gear, and some raid experience to join the next one, and so on and so forth until the entire server loathes you for being a guild hopper, then you have to go like change your name or server transfer to get in any decent guild... but there is really no other way.
The same thing happens in PvP. Say instead of being a hardcore dragon slayer this guy wanted to be the very best at PvP. He wants to go win some big tournament, or whatever. Sure, he will eventually get his full PvP set from doing 2's for points for several months. He might even be lucky enough to find a half-decent trade chat pug and get his t2 weapons. But after that, he is pretty much stuck. If he wants any hope at getting gladiator, much less rank one of anything (even if he himself is good enough) he would have to play with other people who are equally as good. People who instead would simply play with any of 100 people who already have proven themselves with some achievement.
This entire situation can be broken down into something we all remember from wotlk, the gearscore paradox. You need X gearscore to get into y raid, but to get x gearscore, you need to run y raid, but you cant run y raid because you dont have x gearscore, and it goes on and on. The same for PvP, you need x rating to have people actually want to play with you, but to get x rating, you need to already have the rating... which if you had it you wouldn't need it anymore. Not exactly a smooth sailing ship.
The only real way to break out of this system is by leveling really fast and getting basic gear that everyone else can get by themselves really quickly at the start of an expansion pack, and then finding teammates/a guild before raiders can catch up and beat you.
Now I'm not talking about people not wanting to carry noobs, or wanting blizzard to add more welfare gear. No. I am simply stating a reoccurring problem that I see in the game: The lack of any way for a player who wants to individually progress himself to do so. It doesn't matter how individually good a player is, or how dedicated a player is, all the limitations on the game to make sure that people who don't play more than 2 hours a week don't get left behind make it impossible to do so.
So that is why WoW isn't gaining in subscribers, IMO. If you just started, and you didn't start with a group of friends, you basically end up in welfare lagoon with no real way out of it.
This is the problem they need to fix.
Post by
Rystrave
Unfortnuately there are guilds and groups that won't let new players join in their hardcoreness. But you'd be surpirsed how many guilds there are that are good, have people geared in both aspects, and are recruiting but can't get anyone to join their guild because they aren't prestige enough.
I was a part of a fairly well known guild, that was in the top 50 progression guilds. We had 4 core raid teams, and oh? 2 raid teams built for NEW MEMBERS that come in and get geared. Same with the PVP side of it. Long story short? Sounds like your problem is just your problem, and maybe you should find a guild that has people willing to work with you versus against you, regardless if they had a name built up or not.
Post by
581897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
bandetlol
And notice how I said if a player wanted to get OUT of welfare lagoon.
Because, you are in it. Right now.
Post by
581897
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
bandetlol
And you are a person who doesn't want to raid, so naturally you would be there. But we are talking about people who WANT to raid.
Post by
589397
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
calilac
A group of people doesn't want to allow new blood into their elitist ranks? Like
that
never happens outside of WoW...
Post by
bandetlol
A group of people doesn't want to allow new blood into their elitist ranks? Like
that
never happens outside of WoW...
I don't think the logic holds. At least for your last statement. A game as old as as WoW isn't not growing because it's not attracting/keeping hold of people who excel in the game, by this point that's irrelevant, it got to be this size in the first place because it appeals to people from all walks of life, regardless of commitment level, it's the casuals who make the game insanely popular though, not the hardcore.
In fact, the clue is the name, they're the hardcore, they're a small amount of the total playerbase.
The problem does exist to an extent in WoW, in that gear doesn't distinguish you any more, but the problem isn't as bad as it was back in Wrath. In fact consider the way things were in vanilla and to a lesser extent TBC (at least until the end when 2.4 was released), then if you were new to the game you had exactly the same progression problem you've described.
Example. Take someone coming into the game prior to 2.4. You levelled up to 70, did your Kara key quests, joined a guild who may still be in Kara, hey they've not progressed further already, but as you point out at this point you've got no choice. You get geared in T4 after a few months. Now what? Maybe you get lucky and you get into a guild who's into T5 and needs your role, but you don't stand out against any of the other people who've been stuck (yes stuck in some cases) in T4 for eternity. So you join a T5 guild and maybe if you're lucky you get your drops and in a few months you're tricked out in T5. By now though you're stuck in mediocre rut. There's nothing in your gear that's making you stand out.
The problem was the same back then, the difference was that you are now complaining that you can't skip the inbetween time in effect. You want people to recognise the brilliance of said player without him having proven he has that brilliance. Therein lies the difference to then and now. Back then you had 6-9 months of gearing up in the tiers to get to a point you were capable of joining a top guild, in the process you made friends, developed a reputation and maybe got recognised as a solid player.
Now what you have is 1-2 months at most to get the top raid gear and then get lumped into the rest of the so called welfare epic pile.
Thing is, as has been said the problem is imagined in a large part. If you're that good, you can spend a couple of months jumping around and proving it, if you can get the gear, show your knowledge AND keep plugging in those guild applications with the guilds you can and do still have a better shot at getting into the top guilds in far less time on average than you would have done 4,5,6 years ago.,
The point is in my opinion irrelevant, gear doesn't make the player, it won't even make you stand out and it never has. Top guilds look at how you play, because gear is easy to get, skill isn't. If this imaginary player really is that good, he'll stand a shot, if not he won't, but then he never deserved it.
99% of the players who join this game aren't even going to be in that position, it isn't the reason this game isn't growing, in fact the ease of getting gear and the changes they've made to appeal to more is the reason that it has grown. Even if it put off every single player in the elite guilds, the game would hardly shrink. There are other reasons. This ain't one.
Irregardless of the gear, why would a top guild even bother to give you a chance to show skill though?
Also, the problem exists in PvP as well, people here have only talked about the dungeon aspect.
Post by
apsk
It's the same for PvP, you get into some pugs, you meet people along the way, if you have skill you will always have someone to do Arenas with, and and if said people have PvP guilds, you will have the shot at RBG's eventually because most teams always lack one or two players.
Like xedcoco said, if you don't show some effort on your part, then you will never get into the top guilds.
Post by
589397
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
yukonjack
Any new player that has set a goal to be in the "top" guild in their server has more avenues to do so now then any other time in the history of the game, and from what I have read this will only get better in Mists.
I really believe you simply can't see the trees for the forest.
Post by
Magician22773
The OP gives only 2 options. Either join the best guild EVER! or join some random scrub guild.
There are lots of options in between there.
Right after Firelands came out, I decided I needed a change, so I re-rolled on a new server. I left 8 raid-ready level 85's, and almost 200k gold behind, and started completely fresh in a new world.
But, one thing I did was some research. I chose the higest ranked PvE server with the closest Horde v. Alliance ratio I could find. I also researched what guilds had decent progression, and made a list of the guilds that I wanted to check out. As I leveled my first toon on the server, I kept looking to see how many players each guild had on at different times. I also looked to see how many players they had not in raid during raid times. From there, I narrowed it down to 3 guilds.
And from there, I just whispered a random guild member for an officer, and asked about recruitment. Two of the three guilds sent me to their website for an application, and 1 just said they were not recruiting. So I applied for each guild. One guild accepted me right away, while the other wanted to get to know me better.
I started to just hang out in Guild chat in one guild, and just stayed in contact with the other. Teh second guild had a non-guild chat channel set up, so I lurked around in there. After about 2 weeks, I was finally offered a spot in the guild.
Also after 2 weeks, I decided I did not fit in well with the first guild. I alos learned that the guild I had been accepted to was top 5 on the server, and had been top 100 world ranked at one point. They hold many server firsts, and also one of our guildies is a pretty well known youtube player.
My point is, with nothing to offer...not even a level 85 on the server, I was able to get invited to a very good guild. It took paitence, persistance, and personality....but I got there.
Post by
422399
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
yukonjack
IMO. If you just started, and you didn't start with a group of friends, you basically end up in welfare lagoon with no real way out of it.
working as intended.
Care to expand on that statement?
Post by
678294
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
@OP
You left out an option.
How about players doing it themselves. Starting a guild that reflects their views and play style.
It seems too many of today's players want to just log on and have everything waiting for them on a silver platter.
As a guildmaster from TBC days...I can say the perspective is quite different from the top.
Being good is only half the equation. Personality is the other half.
Trying to manage a successful guild, never mind a hardcore raiding guild leaves little room for the unknown.
Today's environment of anonymity within the game makes it even more difficult as you probably well know since you go back to vanilla and days when server familiarity help guilds and players sort out their places.
In such a situation...how does a guild leader sift through a dozen potential unfamiliar members and choose the one that will best fit the guild objectives?
The progressive path from pug to friends list to reserve member to main raider passed away long ago.
It's all a resume today.
Post by
895302
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Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
895302
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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